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[Ray Abbitt]

Indeed, it's so confusing that it's hard not to conclude
that the whole thing is intentionally misleading.
I have been seriously considering DirectTV. I'm in Fremont
so I doubt that ordering through Sonic will be an option
although Costco are currently offering some deals on DirectTV.
Here are some tips based on my recent studies of the DirectTV
* Contract term. 24 months in most cases.

(I am a former DirectV employee)
Contract term is 12 months for standard receivers. Advanced receivers (any
HD, any DVR) extend that to 24 months.

* Teaser rates. At the end of the day, there is so much
fine print they can charge pretty much anything they
want whenever they want.

Biggest teaser is the so-called "Family Plan". I never saw ANYBODY happy with
it.

* HD service. Add $10 per month (plus equipment related fees).

Only equipment related fees are the $5 bucks a month per additional receiver.

* Service. Add $6 per month for the service contract (unless
you're willing to risk it).

The so-called "protection plan". Like all such things, a total rip off. One
service call (after the original 90 days) will cost $75. The equipment itself
(like most other electronics) is likely to either fail from "infant mortality"
or last forever. There are an awful lot of 10 year old Hughes and Sony
receivers out there working just fine. Most likely problems are poorly
mounted dish (not stable and moving or mounted where tree/vegetation growth
will affect line of sight) or improper hookup of other equipment which
you should notice immediately. Make sure that the receiver is NOT hooked
up with RF only and make sure that all of your existing equipment (DVD
player, VCR, hookups to surround sound or other audio systems) still works.
And make sure you check both audio and video on all of these.

* DVR service. Add $6 per month (plus equipment related fees).
* The "free" receivers are NOT free at all. They waive the
up-front fee but tack on ~$5 per month lease fee per device.

Actually they are (sort of). The $5 per month covers the additional
programming for the extra receiver. They call it a lease fee but you pay
the same amount even if you do own your own receiver. (90% or more of the
DTV receivers out there are considered "customer owned".)

It basically sucks. But so does Dish and Comcast although
Comcast doesn't require the term commitment. I might yet
go back to Comcast for that reason but I'll certainly have
to hold my nose :-(

I've had all 3. Cable costs got prohibitive for me years ago. There aren't
a lot of differences in the satellite services. I've been a customer of
both of them. Biggest differences I've seen is that DTV is more likely to
offer free upgrades to existing customers and that Dish raises their rates
more often.
-ray

[Ray Abbitt]

Post by Ray Abbitt

* Contract term. 24 months in most cases.

(I am a former DirectV employee)
Contract term is 12 months for standard receivers. Advanced receivers (any
HD, any DVR) extend that to 24 months.

Thanks for the helpful comments. However, I believe the
minimum term may now be 18 months.
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.
jsp?assetId=1100106&footernavtype=5
"You agree to pay for 18 consecutive months (for standard
receivers) or 24 consecutive months (for HD and/or DVR
receivers) of a $29.99/month or greater programming package."

Looks like you are right. Must have happened in the last month or so (it
was still 12 months when I parted company with DTV)

I suspect that most folks will want at least one DVR and/or
HD receiver so I think it's still effectively 24 months in
most cases.

About 80% of new customers were still going for one or more standard
receivers and no advanced receivers. (This was in October and I don't
really think it has changed much since then.

I do prefer Comcast's month to month approach but that's
about the only thing I like about Comcast.

There are ALWAYS ways out of the contract. (Rule #1--when you call them
say either "cancel" or your favorite profanity when the phone system asks
you to describe what you want. That will get you directly to customer
retention--they have the power to give you almost anything.)

I'm curious if DirectTV observe the same policy as AT&T,
Comcast et al when it comes to pro rated billing (when
you add, delete or change services)? That policy appears
to be... ALWAYS overcharge the customer but hide it in a
mess of debits and credits that requires at least two hours
of concerted effort to decode and is sometimes harder to
crack than a 1024 bit encryption key ;-)

In my rather strange experience with DTV they have not overcharged at
all when changing services, in fact they actually have done things in
my favor, but configuring sendmail with smtp auth was easier than
understanding the bills. I went from a new customer with 1 standard
receiver--moved to a new address (without using their move service),
went to an ISP account (discounted service when the company I was working
for was a contracted service provider for DTV) with an HDDVR in addition
to my existing receiver. After the company was purchased by DTV I was
transferred to a complimentary account. And when we parted company, I
continued my service with a lower level of programming. Through all of
this, I have not been charged an up front fee for any equipment and all
of my equipment (including the HDDVR) are listed as "customer owned". I
suspect that they have as much trouble understanding this as I do.

Oh, and tip #2. If you call them and you don't get a representative with
a southern accent, hang up and try again.

And tip #3. If the person you are talking to doesn't give you an answer
you like, accidently hang up and try again.

Tip #4. Read tip 2 and tip 3 again. DTV is NOT like Sonic. There are multiple
call centers and not all of them are in the US.

-ray

[Ray Abbitt]

People really still watch TV?

Only if they have a DVR or (preferably) MythTV.

-ray

[Ray Abbitt]

Hi Ray,

Post by Ray Abbitt

* Service. Add $6 per month for the service contract (unless
you're willing to risk it).

The so-called "protection plan". Like all such things, a total rip off.
One service call (after the original 90 days) will cost $75. The equipment
itself (like most other electronics) is likely to either fail from "infant
mortality" or last forever. There are an awful lot of 10 year old Hughes
and Sony receivers out there working just fine.

Can't say I'm familiar with those older models, but judging by all the
DirecTV customers complaining about their HD DVR receivers, they were
probably better.

The very early HR20 HD DVR's had problems. They were rushed to market. I
didn't get one until their performance stabalized. 99% of the people who
got one after the first 6 months have had no problems. (Keep in mind that
I got a pretty good picture of what was going on here, first as an installer
and then as a tech supervisor)

With DISH they allow you to start the DHPP when you need it and then cancel
it when you don't, without any penalties.

So does DTV but they don't advertise it that way. (See my other post about
how to call DTV). Regardless, in 10 years with Dish and (so far) a little
over 2 years with DTV I have NEVER needed service. Mind you, I did my own
installations in both cases and 99% of the technicians working under me
would not have been able to correctly connect up to my existing equipment
anyway.

Post by Ray Abbitt

* The "free" receivers are NOT free at all. They waive the
up-front fee but tack on ~$5 per month lease fee per device.

Actually they are (sort of). The $5 per month covers the additional
programming for the extra receiver. They call it a lease fee but you pay
the same amount even if you do own your own receiver. (90% or more of the
DTV receivers out there are considered "customer owned".)

If given the choice between owning the equipment outright or leasing,
leasing is the cheaper way to go. The outright price can pay for a lot of
leased months, and by the time it takes to break even, you probably would
have wanted a newer receiver long before. Still, some people like to own, so
there is always that option.

The lease thing is a joke. I originally went with Dish because I didn't
want to have leased equipment. It ended up costing me money because I
paid ($50) for a new receiver when I got a Tivo because my original receiver
worked with an rf remote only and the standalone Tivo couldn't control it.
Funny thing is that when Dish changed from customer owned to leased equipment
they didn't change their prices. And about the same time DTV changed from
leased to customer owned--and didn't change thier prices either. But after
working in the industry, I now know that it really doesn't mean anything.
After a year or so neither company really wants the equipment back anyway.
The manufacturing cost is considerably less than the shipping and costs of
refurbishing used equipment.

Post by Ray Abbitt
Biggest differences I've seen is that DTV is more likely to offer free
upgrades to existing customers and that Dish raises their rates more
often.

That's bull. I've gone years without a increase on my DISH bill and should
an increase occur, it happens once a year and usually in February. If you
miss the February increase, you won't see it affect you until the
following year.

And if you had made ANY change in your programming you would have seen ALL
of the previous changes immediately. My DISH bill never changed from 1996
until 2006, but that was because I payed annually (which they don't offer
any more) and was grandfathered in at the old $300 a year price.

-ray

[Ray Abbitt]

Hi Ray,

<snip>

Post by Ray Abbitt

DirecTV customers complaining about their HD DVR receivers, they were
probably better.

The very early HR20 HD DVR's had problems. They were rushed to market. I
didn't get one until their performance stabalized. 99% of the people who
got one after the first 6 months have had no problems. (Keep in mind that
I got a pretty good picture of what was going on here, first as an
installer and then as a tech supervisor)

The hardware revision was one issue, but the firmware is quite another. Up
until about a month and a half when I stopped caring about such matters I
was reading complaint after complaint about the HR20 firmware. In comparison
the 622 and 722 receivers have higher customer satisfaction ratings with
better GUI and performance.

And I've still had NO problems with my HR20. And (at least in the areas
covered by the Santa Rosa office) that is pretty much the norm.

It's my understanding that the HR21 doesn't include a OTA ATSC tuner unless
you spend an additional $100 for the module. Has that changed?

What module? It doesn't include any OTA tuner and there is no module. If
you want/need it, better hope your TV has it and you won't be able to
record it obviously.

Have they finally fixed the HR series to use an external hard drive and not
disable the internal one?

Nope. Keep in mind that the external hard drive is not officially supported
yet.

Post by Ray Abbitt

With DISH they allow you to start the DHPP when you need it and then
cancel it when you don't, without any penalties.

So does DTV but they don't advertise it that way. (See my other post about
how to call DTV).

I see that "CSR Roulette" isn't unique. :)

Post by Ray Abbitt
Regardless, in 10 years with Dish and (so far) a little over 2 years with
DTV I have NEVER needed service. Mind you, I did my own installations in
both cases and 99% of the technicians working under me would not have been
able to correctly connect up to my existing equipment anyway.

Hmm, that's an interesting endorsement of the DirecTV service technicians
and their training. :)

One of the reasons I'm not there any more. I thought after the buy out of
Ironwood by DTV that things would change. They did. They got worse.

<snip>

How old of a DISH receiver are we talking about that only worked with RF?

Bought in the fall of 1996. I had the choice of the "upgraded" receiver with
RF only or the standard that was infrared only.

The first DISH receiver I had many years ago worked with both RF and
Infrared. Although I disabled the RF as I didn't need it.

Post by Ray Abbitt
Funny thing is that when Dish changed from customer owned to leased
equipment they didn't change their prices. And about the same time DTV
changed from leased to customer owned--and didn't change thier prices
either.

So basically that's a wash. :)

Yep. It's a marketing thing. Whatever seems to be in at the time.

Post by Ray Abbitt
But after working in the industry, I now know that it really doesn't mean
anything. After a year or so neither company really wants the equipment
back anyway. The manufacturing cost is considerably less than the shipping
and costs of refurbishing used equipment.

And yet DISH is currently giving people a choice to either keep their owned
HD receivers or allow them to buy it back with included shipping as they
further transition to MPEG-4 with a free upgrade receiver of equal or
greater value.

DirecTv mostly did the same for people who bought (and paid a ridiculous
price for the original [non MPEG-4] hd equipment). They just waited a
while to do it so that they could take advantage of the customers that
were willing to pay to get the new ones immediately. Although they never
did "buy them back". In fact, they would just as soon that the customer
keep them. Pretty much everything over 2 years old is on the scrap list.
Current model receivers are returned for refurbishment (another sore
subject because as far as we could tell there was no refurbishment done-
failure rate of so-called refurbished receivers was unbelievable) and
anything else is disposed of--and it costs money to get rid of them.

Speaking of HD, what did you think of those DirecTV ads claiming more HD
content then both Comcast and DISH?

Figures lie and liars figure. I think the real issue is whether they have
the channel you want in HD (and does that channel have real HD programming)
Kind of like the cellular wars. Both Verizon and ATT claim to be the most
reliable. All I know there is that my daughter (ATT) has a lot more dropped
calls than I do. Or the ATT claim about more bars in more places. Their
GSM phones are usable world wide so "more places". But Christina has to
pick her spot to be able to use her phone at Cal State Fullerton. And ATT
was not even considered as an alternative for our company phones when I
worked for DirecTV because of the number of areas where they had no or
very spotty coverage. Verizon was the best, Sprint was reasonable for most
areas.

I found the DirecTV ads to be very misleading. At last count DISH had more
usable HD channels despite what the DirecTV ad was claiming. What the ad
didn't tell people, maybe it was in the hard to read fine print at the
bottom of the screen, was that DirecTV was adding more local HD. In which
case the 100 HD channels the ad was talking about was of little consequence
since you can only view the local HD channels in your own DMA.

No, the 100 new channels didn't count locals and it didn't count things
like the NFL package. But it did count the additional premiums. Keep in
mind that when they started running that ad that there were only about
10 channels of HD available plus the locals. Using that as a base, there
are considerably more than 100 new channels. Whether they are "usable"
or not depends on what you want to watch and what package you have. I
would pretty much be happy with any of the alternatives, but some people
have things they want that are more available on one than the other.
DirecTv has the advantage when it comes to sports (which I don't care
about at all). Back when I first got Dish they had the advantage when it
came to kids channels (one of the things I cared about back then but my
youngest is now 21 and isn't at my place on alternate weekends) but I
have no idea about now (or how much of it is HD content for that matter).
<snip>

Post by Ray Abbitt
My DISH bill never changed from 1996 until 2006, but that was because I
payed annually (which they don't offer any more) and was grandfathered in
at the old $300 a year price.

Sounds like you had a great deal with DISH.

I did have, but if I had changed to HD, or changed programming packages
I would have been considered almost as a new customer (although I would
not have been allowed any of the new customer incentives).

As I mentioned before I haven't been keeping up with this lately, but from
my perspective if you want sport packages go with DirecTV, if you want
everything else, including better hardware, go with DISH. And, if you want
to save money, put up a decent OTA antenna, or maybe get a FTA receiver. :)

I not paying all that much attention any more either. I'm happy with what
I have, any change would cost me (more) money.

-ray